Chris Zoephel, National Director, recently interviewed Mark Oestreicher about what makes for good youth ministry.

Mark Oestreicher (Marko), pictured flying above, serves as president of Youth Specialties and is part of the CORE 2007. He is the author of many books and is an active blogger.

We intend to podcast this interview for you because it was so good, but for now (and for those of you who love text), here is the transcript.

zoephel. Why are you so passionate about youth ministry?

marko. Gosh, how do you answer that question? I suppose there's a variety of reasons. Clearly my own spiritual journey was affected by youth ministry—my own youth pastor and the community of my own youth ministry had a huge impact on my life—so that's part of it. Then I started to see—by people pointing it out to me, and my own experiences—by my senior year in high school I had some gifting in that area, or at least giftings that could be used in that area. And then there's kind of that third component that would be called "calling"—a hard to describe spiritual sense that this is what God has for me—either what I was made to do, or what God has for me for this period of time. So, yeah; I kind of pursued that in college, and with a variety of internships, and you know, just fell in love with it, specifically with junior high ministry.

zoephel. With the cultural changes we have seen in the past few decades, what are the keys to reaching this generation?

marko. In some ways things haven't changed at all and in some ways they've changed dramatically. What hasn't changed is that it's about caring adults who are willing to be uncomfortable enough to go more than half way to be in a relationship with a teenager. It certainly hasn't changed in the years of the modern youth ministry movement, and probably has never changed since the beginning of time. Clearly a lot of the methods, approaches and cultural realities that are in play have changed a lot. I wasn't using text messaging to connect with teens back when I started in youth ministry, and no one—I mean no one—saw text messaging replacing email so quickly as a way to connect with kids a few years back. The world of adolescents has changed a lot also. They're still dealing with the same primary tasks of autonomy, affinity, and kind of breaking away from their parents and figuring out who they are in relationship to the world. But how that plays out in a world that is saturated in speed and stimulation, and a fairly boundary-less world, has shifted quite a bit in the last twenty years.

zoephel. What would you say are the marks (if you could list four or five) of a healthy and life-changing youth ministry in your view?

marko. Let's see... four or five marks... A really cool youth room! No, seriously—it really comes down to the DNA of the values of those involved in the leadership of the youth ministry. A handful of things I would throw out. One, it really goes back to that relational thing. It's so easy for workers to get lulled into thinking that the right kind of programs will bring about transformation in kids' lives. You know it's interesting because I feel like youth ministry went down that road in the 60s and 70s, and by the late 80s, a lot of people realized that was a cul-de-sac or dead-end and started to really embrace—not that this is a brand new idea—a more relational approach to ministry.

So it's interesting that in the last few years we've seen a whole new resurgence in that type of ministry. Seems to go back to a handful of youth workers who can't quite give up the notion that if they had the right youth room with the coolest furniture, and video screens (flat screens, of course) with the latest gaming systems and sound systems that somehow that would be good youth ministry. And in U.S. culture, all around the nation, we see those rare churches that have lots of financial resources, and of course senior pastors that have a vision for youth ministry, that will dump hundreds, thousands, some times evn millions in these facilities, and then just build programs that draw hundreds, sometimes even thousands of kids—and very little life transformation takes place.

So it really is, once again, back to the idea of a ministry that is driven by the value of adults who are growing in their intimacy with God, investing into the lives of teenagers, and modeling that journey for them.

zoephel. That's a really good answer, I really like that last part, not just having adult leaders care about the kids, but adults being filled up so they can be poured out.

marko. Yeah, exactly. It's really a matter of journeying together. It's not about an adult leader who's got it all figured out—or doesn't have it all figured out—but leaders who are committed to being on their own spiritual journey and then inviting kids to live alongside of each other and to share those journeys together. And that's when it really becomes interesting, because adults I know who choose to share their own spiritual journeys find their spiritual growth is greatly furthered, more so than it would be if they weren't involved in youth ministry.

zoephel. I was asked to put this question to you: is youth ministry transitional ministry?

marko. You mean like ministry to move to something else? (laughter) Well you know it's interesting, I've been doing this for 25 years now, and 15 years ago I would have strongly reacted to the suggestion that youth ministry would ever be transitional, and that people are wimpy youth workers if they think that they would ever move on to something else. And in general I still resonate with the idea of people being called to youth ministry not as a training ground or as a stepping stone to something else, but as something they're going to stick with. A lot of that is because I've seen the powerful impact of youth workers who stay in ministry for a long time, and specifically if they stay at the same church for a long time. I was with a Jr. High pastor the other day who'd been working at the same church for 14 years with 7th and 8th graders, and I mean the impact of that kind of thing, to have volunteers working along with him who were former junior high students of his—the impact of that grows logrythimically. Now all that said, I've softened on this a little bit because I do believe that God moves people on to other things. So I guess I would say it should never start off being transitional. People shouldn't come into it thinking this is an opportunity for me to get trained for something or other or "better" but I would say it's legit for people to be open to God moving them on to other things. And I think in a little bit of my... oh... immaturity 15 years ago I wouldn't have been able to say that.

zoephel. Okay, so to kind of summarize what you said, it comes down to intent.

marko. Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to intent, and an openness to where god wants to lead us in our own journey.

zoephel. What is the current average stay for a youth pastor?

marko. Now, you know, nobody really has good research on that right now. We used to all say 18 months, but I'm convinced that that has been elongated because of the professionalization of the youth ministry. I'm sure it's longer than that now, but I don't have a good number. My guess is—my gut says—that the average might be two years.

zoephel. What is the key to longevity in youth ministry?

marko. The question of longevity in youth ministry is probably a slightly different—an overlapping set of answers for a volunteer as it would be for paid youth worker. For a paid youth worker, a big part of it, I've certainly come to see is that if the church doesn't have a healthy vision for youth ministry that includes valuing the paid youth worker as ministerial staff person who deserves a salary that you could raise a family on, then they won't be able to sustain people. They're not going to be able to get people to stay beyond about 27 years old if they're not willing to have a salary that increases to the point where somebody could live on it. I mean, it's kind of this vicious cycle that when churches only pay youth workers $28,000, then of course they're going to have a revolving door of youth workers. So that's a big part of it—a church that's willing to put their money where their mouth is—and say that we value having somebody grow in wisdom and stature as a youth worker, and stay with us for awhile.

And then for both volunteers and for paid youth workers I think it involves a couple of things—the youth worker is able to find their place of value within the church, that there's a sense where their identity as a youth worker is healthy, and that usually means that they're not relying too much on the affirmation of other people, though certainly some affirmation from the church helps. But really it has to be that if they stay in it for a long time, they can't be looking for their affirmation from the students, parents or the church—they have to find their identity as a youth worker in something else—hopefully in God.

The other thing that I would say is that to stay in it for a long time, they have to have an evolving understanding of how to relate with kids. So for example, when I was a 20-something, I related to kids as a big brother. When I was in my 30s, I tended to find that I was relating to them as an uncle. Now that I'm 44 years old, the guys in my own small group totally relate to me like a father figure. It means different things: I shouldn't pretend that I'm in that big brother role, but it also provides some new opportunities for me that I didn't have in my 20s.

zoephel. In light of all this, what would you say to a pastor or a church that was looking to hire a youth minister? (towards a healthy youth ministry)

marko. //sigh// They're good questions! They're so simple. I would say don't just look to hire a hired gun. Don't just look to hire a youthy person that you can farm out the youth ministry to and forget about it. The youth ministry needs to be a shared value of the entire church, not... people say that youth ministry often looks like a one-eared mickey mouse, that the mouse head is the church, and the one ear is the youth ministry, kinda stuck off on the side. It never works. It doesn't produce real results. The kids might get excited about attending youth group for a few years in that model, but they will not sustain that development, and they'll drop out of church as soon as they're gone from the youth group.

So, that's part of it. I would encourage senior pastors to look for somebody who is not just somebody who wants to hang around kids, but is passionate about developing other adults in that ministry, because their ministry will be limited to a youth group of about 20 kids if they're the only adult who works directly with the kids. It'll multiply exponentially if they're someone that builds into other adults to do that work.

I would look for someone who is spiritually growing themselves, who exhibits some humility, but also some excitement and passion. I would look for somebody who has a desire to stay for a long time.

It's really critical that the church has thought through what their real values are—not just some kind of stated mission statement that nobody actually lives by. But what are the real—I would say this to youth workers who are looking at a church, too—really look to discover what the driving values of the church are, and make sure that you're in alignment with those, or it's always going to be conflict for you.

zoephel. Yeah, that's so hard to do, though.

marko. Yeah, it is hard to do, but if you just ask the surface questions—and only of the senior pastor—the likelihood is that you're not going to find the real truth. You need to be able to dig some levels deeper. And if the senior pastor isn't willing to open up avenues for those questions to be asked, then you certainly shouldn't go there because that reveals a whole other set of problems.

zoephel. What advice would you give to a volunteer youth staffer of a small church? Especially one who feels like they are in over their head and not trained enough?

marko. I would say that training is available, and really important, and there are hundreds of thousands of volunteer youth workers just like yourself who are asking the same questions. Spending some time reading the books that are available, and attending the events that are available can make a tremendous difference not only in your knowledge and skill base but also in your ability to stick with this for a long time. We find so often with volunteer workers is that what they need more than skill training or deeper understanding of youth ministry culture, or anything like that is just the encouragement that they're not in this alone. So that would be one of the biggest things I would do, is to encourage them not to operate in an isolated way, but to connect with other youth workers from other churches, to read books, to be a learner, and if at all possible, to attend the National Youth Worker's Convention! [laughter]

And also I would encourage them that it has to be a team effort. This is true whether there's a paid person there or not, but especially essential in a smaller church. So often what I see is that there's one person who has a heart for youth ministry, and they're pouring all this time into their kids, and they just get spent, because they're doing it by themselves. They have to have a team approach, no matter how small the church. That group of adult leaders has to experience some level of community together—a sense that "We're in this together".

zoephel. I agree. It's a challenge, though. People get so busy.

marko. Yeah, it is, but I'm saying it's a question of priorities. I'm not saying it has to take tons and tons of time, but for a youth ministry leadership team of three people to get together for lunch or breakfast or dinner once every couple weeks, and kind of share each others' burdens, and plan a little bit, and pray together... it has an enormous spillover impact into the life of a youth ministry—even one with eight kids.

I've often seen more really transformative stuff happening in the really small youth groups than in the really big youth groups, and I would encourage small church volunteer youth workers to stop belittling the impact of what's taking place in their ministries. They tend to find it very easy to compare themselves larger churches with paid youth ministry staff and say, "We can never be like them," and I want to encourage those people to not aspire to be like them.

zoephel. What advice would you give to a newer youth pastor who is paid and is trying to run a youth ministry for the first time?

marko. I would say surround yourself with quality people. Don't be afraid to bring on volunteers who are older than yourself and have a humble attitude about what you can learn from them. Build relationships with other paid youth workers in your area; if a network doesn't exist, be tenaciously committed about getting something going, even if it's only with a couple other people, whom you meet with monthly for lunch. Become a voracious reader, whether you like it or not. There are more opportunities for God to grow you if you continue to read widely, but certainly within the youth ministry world. Have a long range. Don't look for immediate change in your youth ministry. Think more about what your ministry will look like in three or four years, not, "How can I change everything by next week?"

zoephel. What advice would you give to a veteran youth pastor?

marko. Yeah, keep growing. The older I get, the more I realize how much growth there is out there for me, just so much opportunity to keep growing and learning, and rethinking my approaches to youth ministry. As my theology continues to fill out and change and grow, I find more and more connections and implications for my ministry. So that's probably the biggest thing—keep growing and changing. The older we get—so many youth workers tend to be calcified in their thinking and approaches to youth ministry, which will totally lead to either burnout or irrelevance—a negative ending either way. If a youth worker starts to feel that occurring... like, "I don't know anything about kids anymore; I don't feel like I'm connecting with them," then it's probably a nudge to get out before things turn bad, or to really open yourself up to some new learning and change.

zoephel. What is Youth Specialties (YS) about? How can you help AMiA youth workers, AMiA churches and AMiA pastors? You guys have National Conferences, right?

marko. Yeah. The primary things that YS offers are resources through our publishing, and training events. And the National Youth Worker's conventions this fall, in Atlanta and St. Louis and San Diego, and there's nothing else like it. It's thousands of youth workers coming together for training and stuff like that. But really at the end of the day, what they're leaving with is a great and deep level of encouragement. There's really nothing like that event; if people haven't been to it, they've got to give it a shot at some point. And then we do The Core, which is our one day training seminar in 100 cities across the US, very accessible to people because it's always in a town near them; it's just a half day long; great for bringing a team of volunteers to. They can go to the Youth Specialties website and see the publishing stuff as well as the event.

zoephel. What's that web address?

marko. Youthspecialties.com! I would also mention that I'm a pretty active blogger, and that's another place someone might go if they want to have their brain piqued. And that's ysmarko.com.

The president of Youth Specialties, Mark Oestreicher is a 20-year middle school ministry veteran who currently volunteers with middle schoolers at his home church. He's the author of the Wild Truth series, Great Talk Outlines for Youth Ministry and Great Talk Outlines 2, and the upcoming Middle School Survival Series books. He's also a popular speaker at retreats and conferences.

In addition to his position as Pastor of Discipleship at Immanuel Anglican Church in Destin, Florida, the Rev. Chris Zoephel serves as the National Director for the Anglican Mission's Student Ministry Leadership Team. The goal of the team is to help the Anglican Mission fulfill it's God-given vision to reach the lost. The team hopes to do this by visioning the importance of healthy student ministry with local congregations while equipping, training and encouraging our local congregations toward exceptional youth ministry (junior and senior high).